ISTANBUL, 11 OCTOBER 2008
Reporter: Thank you very much for taking your time to talk.
Adnan Oktar: Thank you for being so kind as to come.
Reporter: Are you ready to begin?
Adnan Oktar: Sure, go ahead.
Reporter: Ok. Let me start with a recent news that came out; that a Turkish court has banned Richard Dawkins’ web site. Can you explain your role in this?
Adnan Oktar: Yes. It’s not a complaint I filed by myself. My lawyer made an application concerning Dawkins. A provisional injunction. There were very serious statements indeed, I haven’t followed it up, but I have now looked it up when you asked. There are quite serious slanders. These slanders are unacceptable. I am happy for a scientist to convey his thoughts, ideas for sure, and I encourage them. But I cannot allow a scientist to issue explicit slanders on his website against myself, my ideas and my beliefs. Nobody else in Europe, in the world, would accept that. This is indeed why there are courts, and there are tens of thousands of defamation cases around the world. This case is just one of them. If I am slandered, of course I will protect myself within the bounds of the law.
Reporter: So that a quick follow up, you feel like the problem was not talking about science it is specifically personal, a personal attack.
Adnan Oktar: Of course. We wanted to debate with Mr. Dawkins, and we have already invited him to Turkey. We wanted to go where he is. Had we been afraid of his ideas, his way of thinking, had we felt unwilling for these to be heard, why would we ask for a debate? I proposed that the subject be debated, to let his thoughts be heard and to let my thoughts be heard and to let people decide for themselves. Nobody who was afraid of his ideas would ever propose such a thing.
Reporter: Let me ask some about your critique of evolution why you disagree such strongly, of course you have written many books, you would talk many hours on this subject, if you could very briefly summarize the key points, what you suggest us about evolutionary theory?
Adnan Oktar: I regard the fact that 100 million fossils were hidden from the public as a scientific scandal. People were deceived, and 100 million fossils were hidden from them. All the 100 million fossils prove creation, and these have been hidden in the store rooms of some museums and various other places. We displayed the fossils of amateur fossil collectors. We exhibited them in various places like restaurants and similar places. Turkish people have been convinced that there is no such thing as evolution. Because we have 100-million, 200-million, 300-million-years-old fossils of all living things and none of them have undergone any change. If there had been changes, we would have said that Allah created through evolution. But this never happened. And there are no transitional forms as the evolutionists claim. I said I would give 10 trillion Turkish lira to anyone bringing a transitional form to me. That promise has stood for months, but nobody has come knocking on my door. No-one has come and said, ”I’ve found a transitional form”.
Reporter: So you are saying that God created all the species that are on Earth many billion years ago as they are today and there has been no change in these billion years.
Adnan Oktar: Fossils show this. Fossils which are hidden underground like photographs show this. If we believe in science, proof and evidence, this is what it is. But we cannot believe in an imaginary ideology. Because if there’s a claim, we need evidence for it. This claim should have evidence to support it, but evolution doesn’t. If there were any, we would say that Allah created this way, and that would be normal. We wouldn’t regard this as an idea at variance with Qur’an. First of all, according to the Qur’an, Allah created angels and genies. These are beings that have obviously not been created through evolution. Humans are other such beings. As a matter of fact, since genies and angels were not created through evolution, there is no need for humans to have been created through evolution, and there is no evidence to suggest that. At this point, we accept the way shown by reason and science. We thus see that evolution has never been involved in the creation of living things. But if there had been, we would have said so; I mean we would say that Allah created through evolution.
Reporter: The vast majority of scientists say that the Earth is almost 14 billion years old. Do you believe that?
Adnan Oktar: Yes
Reporter: How does your critique about evolution, is it the same or different than the critiques in Christianity or in the intelligent design in the USA?
Adnan Oktar: There is a great deal of resemblance in terms of the essentials. But in the Christian belief system, there is the matter of the creation of the Earth in 6 days. That is not true, of course. It happened not in 6 days, but over the course of millions of years. There is a great error. The other issue [Intelligent Design] is so dishonest. I find it so dishonest of them to say that an intelligent being designed the world. They should directly say that Allah created it. They should be sincere about this issue, I find this theory so dishonest.
Reporter: So is there, just to follow up on that, is there a specific Islamic view in your critique of evolution that is apart from the Christian respect?
Adnan Oktar: There is only this belief in the 6 days which is the problem. Only that is incorrect, I mean the world and the living things in it have a history of millions of years. This is incorrect, and there are some other errors and mistakes. But they agree by 80-90%.
Reporter: How do you explain the fact that vast majority of evolutionary biologists accept the theory of evolution? How they can all be wrong?
Adnan Oktar: A Darwinist dictatorship, a scientific dictatorship, has been established in the world under the control of freemasons. Any member of a university who opposes Darwinism is dismissed from the university right away. Whether or not that person believes, he should still be in a position to believe in Darwinism. There is a kind of imposition and compulsion going on. So, thanks to the scientific dictatorship, Darwinism is able to survive. Otherwise, had open discussion been possible, had it been permitted to discuss Darwinism in universities around the world, Darwinism would collapse in a week to 10 days.
Reporter: I think it would surprise a lot of scientist to hear that they are controlled by world masons. What makes you say that masons have so much influence on scientific discussion?
Adnan Oktar: Many rectors, deacons, administrators, professors and scientists in universities, famous doctors in hospitals and even people working in security and the law are freemasons. There are millions of masons in America, and masonry is secret, meaning they do not openly declare their existence. Keeping secrets and secrecy is in any case a feature of freemasonry. So if you ask a mason whether he is a mason, he will not admit it. In order to admit such a thing freemasonry would have to be an open organization. It is very hard to debate the existence of a force that is hidden and invisible. A professor or scientist who was a member of the British Royal Academy was recently removed from his post, for instance. The aim is evident, to wear these people down. A scientist in Turkey was also removed from his post because he believed in Creation, and was forced to resign from his university. There is a system of oppression everywhere in the world. Everyone knows that, and you can see it if you do a bit of research.
Reporter: Do you work with Creationist and or intelligent design activists in United States?
Adnan Oktar: I met with people supporting Creation some 10 years ago, or earlier. But it was a very brief and limited meeting. I have had no comprehensive meeting with a wide-ranging flow of information.
Reporter: You have a very successful business here, publishing business a media business, your book of Atlas of Creation is produced with of a highest technical details. A lot of people wonder where your money comes from? Can you explain how you are founded?
Adnan Oktar: My books are among some of the best selling in the world. No writer sells as many books. And I do not draw any royalties from my books. My publishers make a lot of money from printing a lot of my books. They use some of the revenue for marketing. But they still make a profit. That is quite normal, and other publishers do the same. In addition, books are not that costly in Turkey, by which I mean that Turkey is an ideal country in terms of book printing and of paper costs. It is not as expensive as one thinks. So the profits can easily be used for marketing.
Reporter: So I mean some people have speculated that weather you receive some of the funding from outside of Turkey from Saudi Arabia. Do you get money from outside of Turkey?
ADNAN OKTAR: I would be delighted if there were. If only I did. And I really should have. Muslim countries should of course support me. They should support me spiritually and materially. But that does not happen, because, in my view, Muslim countries have not yet grasped the importance of the matter.
Reporter: One thing is striking when you look at the surveys of attitudes about evolution is that the two of the countries that are strongest acting against evolution are the United States and Turkey.
What are your thoughts, why Turkey in particular, why this country has become the leader of the anti evolution movement with in the Islamic world.
ADNAN OKTAR: There is only Harun Yahya in Turkey standing up to the theory of evolution, and it comes from that. It is not the Turkish state, society or nation that is opposed. Our nation concluded that there is no such thing as evolution as a result of my work in Turkey, and the level of people not believing in Darwinism in Turkey now stands as 90%. My impact has manifested itself very intensely in America, Europe and in Turkey. It has manifested itself very strongly in France, and also in Britain. A huge impact has taken place in Jacques Chirac, in Britain and France, in the heads of state of both countries. They have made statements about it, I can give you. Nicolas Sarkozy has made statements in France, saying, “It is irreligion that causes suffering, not religion.” Sarkozy also says: “It is Almighty Allah Who is in the thoughts and hearts of all men, it is Allah Who sets people free instead of making them captive, and it is Allah Who is a rampart against human beings’ measureless pride and madness.” This is a flawless statement, and it goes on. There was also a serious change in Tony Blair’s way of thinking. He says, “You cannot understand the modern world without understanding the importance of religious belief.” “Protect religion and help it be a force for good,” he says. Tony Blair also said in an interview that he reads the Qur’an in the evenings and has given the Qur’an to famous artists. Jacques Chirac also sent me a thank you letter concerning my book. I have received hundreds of letters from many famous people in Europe praising and appreciating my book. But I do not want to give names or details.
Reporter: How many books have you written?
ADNAN OKTAR: More than 300.
Reporter: More than three hundred… A lot of people wonder weather you yourself wrote this books because it seems impossible for a single person to write so many books.
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course, I do not just write them myself. It is impossible for anyone to write 300 books alone. I have a team of 30 colleagues. I ask them for the photographs, information and all kinds of detailed information I want. They bring it to me and I put it all together, interpret it, choose the relevant photographs and send it off to the editor. That means it goes really fast.
Reporter: About a year ago many scientists in United States secular scientists, even atheists were very surprised when they see the copies of Atlas of Creation in their post. Why did you send them copies?
ADNAN OKTAR: I sent it so they could become acquainted with my book, read my other books, benefit from the useful ideas in it and also notify me of any criticisms they may have. There is a short note on the subject in the book.
Reporter: What kind of influence did your Atlas of Creation have in discussion of evolution in Islamic world or in other countries?
ADNAN OKTAR: The theory of evolution found itself in a dead-end for the first time. It produced a huge shock in Europe. We can see this when we look at the French press, the German press and other press organs. The French daily Le Point carried the headline “Save Darwin.” That is a sign of defeat. La Liberation described the book as having “caused total panic.” That is also an admission of defeat, a report of the defeat of Darwinism. Germany’s Stern magazine referred to the “book exploding like thunder.” Another German publication said that “Darwin is in difficulties on Europe.” Die Welt said that the French Education Ministry had panicked on seeing the book, Daily Deutsche Zeitung stated that the book had dealt a serious blow. One teacher who saw the Atlas of Creation told the press; “it was as if we had all been swept away by a flood... we were hugely excited, and my friend and I began running around in the teachers’ room.” This shows its extraordinary impact. Dutch radio spoke of the book blowing in like a hurricane. One Italian paper said, “What we know for certain is that we will be the losers.” Could there be any more explicit statement? Belgium compared it to a “cross-fire.” Poland said the book had stunned the authorities, The Italian daily La Stampa, Italy’s largest newspaper, said, “Farewell, Darwin.” That is a clear documentation of the ruination of Darwinism. The whole European press admits it. Statistics and research show that Darwinism has been dealt a body blow in Europe and that the level of people not believing in Darwinism has risen to 80%. Opinion polls in Europe have made this crystal clear.
Reporter: I haven’t heard that 80 percent of Europeans don’t believe in Darwinism.
ADNAN OKTAR: I can show you those surveys from the press and various other companies, and it is quite evident in those.
Reporter: You have mentioned these many places, publications in different countries that have cited their work and mentioned you, but previously when we talk about the West, are most of the companies in press credible of you, or negative about your critique of evolution?
ADNAN OKTAR: It is clear that they have been greatly affected. There is the idea of “You are very powerful but I am unwilling to believe.” What does it mean when Italy’s La Stampa says, “Farewell, Darwin”? What could be more explicit than Italy’s Corriere della Sera saying, “What we know for certain is that we will be the losers”?
Reporter: Let me ask your legal situation. Earlier of this year you were sentenced to 3 years of jail by a Turkish court. What is your status?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, first and foremost I surely respect the court ruling. I have been sentenced to three years’ imprisonment and convicted of being the leader of a criminal enterprise. The court prosecutor concentrated on three elements. The first is that these people, myself included, had previously been acquitted by the court. We had been acquitted on the same charges. The prosecutor said, “You had previously ruled in favor of acquittal.” That was the first evidence he submitted. Second, statements were taken from these people by the police under duress, with the use of force and death threats, and in the absence of their lawyers. For that reason, he said, those statements are inadmissible. Because the court also agreed that these statements were inadmissible, and the Supreme Court and Turkish laws say the same thing. That was the second ground he stated. Third, he said there is no evidence in the file. Apart from that, he said, there is no other evidence against these people. All we have is statements taken under duress by the police, with threats, death threats and mistreatment. And he said that, as the court had agreed, these statements taken in the absence of a lawyer were inadmissible and that these people should be acquitted. But my colleagues, some female colleagues, and I were still sentenced to 3 years’ in prison. I respect that ruling, of course, but I am not the leader of a criminal enterprise, and I have never killed, robbed or mugged anyone, and never hurt anyone, and as the prosecutor said, there is absolutely no evidence against me. But if the Court has issued such a ruling I will go and do my time if necessary. Even prison is still my homeland, and it makes no difference to me.
Reporter: Well putting aside the statements that were not properly, legally taken, you were convicted of being the leader of a criminal gang. How do you respond to those charges?
ADNAN OKTAR: As the prosecutor said, there is no evidence in the court file. They just have statements taken by the police under threats and mistreatment. The police officers who took those statements, who inflicted the torture, are currently on trial themselves, facing sentences for over 1000 years. If they were to take you and hang you up by your arms, torture you and give you electric shocks, and say you had to sign those pieces of paper, you would sign them, too. And we signed them. My female colleagues and everyone signed them. Apart from that, and as the prosecutor said, there is no evidence against us. Only the statements taken under duress.
Reporter: But why would you be targeted, why would people want to send you to jail?
ADNAN OKTAR: Surely the Court is beyond that; I say these words excluding the Court. But I am someone who has targeted freemasonry, freemasons, communists, fascists, the alleged secret society in Turkey known as Ergenekon and the secret deep state. I have engaged in scholarly and cultural activities against such illegal bodies. Such measures can be taken against anyone, anywhere in the world, who does such things, no matter who they may be. Many moves have been made against me over the years. Nine attempts have been made on my life. I was held for 10 months among mental patients who had killed other people. I was presented as a mad person. But this was finally rectified when the military hospital issued a report saying I am sane. But all that was done to me. I was then held in a cell. But I was finally acquitted of all the charges. The same kinds of accusation have been made against me before, and I was always acquitted. But this time there was no evidence against me but statements taken under duress, which I was forced to sign. So I was again acquitted. But now we have this situation in court. But the press have been out to get me for years. They have slandered me and written against me many times, and are still doing so. But these things have no effect on me. They even mixed cocaine in with my food when I was detained at the security headquarters, later a forensic report proved that and the courts acquitted me. I was acquitted because I proved that it had been mixed in with my food by the police. But the press described me as a cocaine addict for a long time. They brought me a kebab while I was held in the security department and mixed the cocaine in with it. I have been exposed to many similar plots to date.
Reporter: Do you say that Darwinism is a terror organization?
ADNAN OKTAR: Darwinism is a system that prepares the ground for terrorism. Terrorism develops where there is a foundation of Darwinism. Terror grows in the swamp waters of Darwinism in the same way that mosquitoes breed in physical swamp waters. I have revealed this with comprehensive and scientific evidence in my book. Fascist and communist leaders have openly declared how they were influenced by Darwinism. They describe their links to Darwinism at great length in their own works.
Reporter: Is sort of your bottom line critique or problem with Darwinism or materialism is that of thing you are resenting to?
Adnan Oktar: Of course; Darwinism equals materialism, and materialism equals Darwinism. They are complementary ideas.
Reporter: Are you going to appeal this three years jail sentence?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes.
Reporter: One final question. Do you think eventually you will win your fight against the evolutionists? Will the scientists themselves reject Darwinism?
ADNAN OKTAR: This satanic deception across the world will soon come to an end, and people will be amazed and realize the illogicality of trying to explain the universe in terms of chance. Everyone will see that Einstein, Edison, great scientists and great statesmen are not entities that came into being by chance. Everyone will realize that the human beings who created New York and Paris did not acquire the necessary intelligence to do so by chance, and they will be astonished and laugh at themselves for ever thinking they did.
Reporter: I am sorry, one final follow up. You mentioned a satanic plot? Are you equating Darwinism or Darwin with satan?
ADNAN OKTAR: Shaytan used Darwin. He used him for his own ends. Shaytan is deceiving mankind with that idea and literally mocking them. Because Darwinism accounts for everything in terms of chance. But there is more information in a chromosome than in a whole library. Darwinism says that is the work of chance. What more need I say? This is just mockery from shaytan. He is laughing at us.
Reporter: Thank you very much.
ADNAN OKTAR: Let me just say this, so you don’t go away wondering. And I thank you very much. You say there were allegations in Court about women and young girls. I was alleged to have threatened a woman and brought her to the edge of the bed by force, stripped her and then recorded her in a compromising state. I was alleged to have pointed a gun at her while doing so. But I showed the court a film comparing my own home with the film involved in the woman’s allegations, and I showed that to the court and the lawyers and the expert witnesses. They all realized there were huge differences between the properties. There are no pillars in my home, while the ceiling in that women’s home has beams running from the ceiling down. That was the most important difference, because the whole house would have had to have been demolished. This is a factor that best reveals the situation. The second difference is that the windows in my house run from floor to ceiling, while those in her house are very small. I proved that, as well. In addition, the woman’s film showed no armed men around, the place was empty, with just two people in it. The court then made its ruling and I was acquitted by the court of first instance. But the woman still sued me for compensation and won. In other words, the court ruled that I had done all that and sentenced me to pay compensation, but that court was a junior one to the court of first instance. But I nevertheless respect the ruling. I have been found guilty in a case I have already been acquitted of in the presence of expert witnesses and lawyers, but I still respect the ruling.
Reporter: Just one final question. How old are you?
ADNAN OKTAR: 53
Reporter: Thank you very much.
ADNAN OKTAR: Thank you. It has been a privilege and an honor. I thoroughly enjoyed it.