STEVE GILMOUR: We can now go over to Istanbul, joining me, and not for the first time, is Mr. Adnan Oktar. Mr. Oktar, is a Turkish scholar and he will be joining us tonight with the help of an interpreter, Dr. Oktar Babuna. Good evening and welcome gentlemen. Good evening.
OKTAR BABUNA: Hello, Mr. Gilmour.
STEVE GILMOUR: Hello. Is that Oktar?
OKTAR BABUNA:Yes, this is Oktar on behalf of Mr. Adnan Oktar. How are you?
STEVE GILMOUR: I am very well, thank you. How are you and welcome back to Talk Radio Europe.
ADNAN OKTAR:And welcome to them.
STEVE GILMOUR: Thank you and good to talk to you again Mr. Oktar.
Mr. Oktar, obviously on Monday, we had a very serious situation between two countries who regarded themselves recently as friends. Can you give me your thoughts on Monday’s incident?
ADNAN OKTAR:The reason why this incident took place is this; if devout people were in charge in Israel, devout people like the members of the Sanhedrin I have met with here, there would be no problem. At the root of the problem is a lack of affection, compassion and trust, nothing else. Everything can be resolved if approached with maturity, compassion and affection. But I’ve said as the boats were approaching there. What did I say? Of course Israeli troops will meet them, that is reasonable. They may be uneasy. They should say: “Go ahead, sir; go ahead, my brother; go ahead, my friend; you are free to carry out your search as you please. The search can be conducted in front of the cameras. By Allah’s leave, we want to transmit this to our Muslim brothers. Come, let us hand the aid out all together.” And if there was still an incident of that kind, then it would be a huge thing that. Then it could never be explained. In that case, devout Israelis would also support us, the world would support us, everyone would support us. But is the present incident normal? Of course it is not normal at all either.
It is very very abnormal because no weapons should have been used. Weapons should not be used against unarmed people. That is a rule, and it is how it is in Turkey as well. For example, people resisting the police attack with sticks and Molotov cocktails. But the police do not shoot at them, rather they defend themselves. That is the style; one cannot respond with bullets. At the very most, rubber bullets may be used. But the police do not even use them, it is risky too. A mistake was made here. What Israel must do is apologize. It must say it made a mistake and make sure it does not happen again. But the best thing would have been to approach matters in the manner I have described in the first place. That is because there is a general, nationwide fear in Israel. A tension. A fear and tension along the lines of, “They will destroy and crush us; they don’t want us here.” The people approaching should have sent that compassion and information on ahead of them.
I wish I had been on the boat and could have said something to them, insha’Allah. And had they listened to me, of course. If people don’t listen, it is out of my hands. But I said right from the outset that permission must be given for the boats to be searched. They must not be uneasy and the aid should be handed out together. But they did not pay heed, so far as I can tell. But what the other side did is cruelty, of course, and unacceptable. But it would also be wrong to build it up further. If Israel apologizes and takes steps to make compensation then I think it can be resolved.
STEVE GILMOUR: Right, okay. According to international law, any vessel that violates or attempts to violate maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. So, what does Mr. Oktar have to say about that?
ADNAN OKTAR: I do not know the legal position, but I have already indicated the solution. A boat can make it very clear it is approaching with peaceful intentions. It can be announced beforehand, to the Israeli government. They should say, “We have no intention of doing any harm. We are coming for completely peaceful purposes. We will offer no resistance and there will be no incident. We will welcome your troops with respect and love. Where shall we meet?” They spoke about a port [referring to Ashod port], for example. It could have been there. The boat could approach the port, saying, “Here we are, go ahead and search us.” This should be arranged beforehand. They should talk to the Israeli authorities, “We will bring these things in. How can we do it?” But if they encounter any surprise move, then the best thing is again a moderate response. If what I say had happened, then nothing would have occurred, and Allah knows the truth. If the search had gone ahead and things been distributed from the port in question, nothing would have happened. They were rather excited, from what I could see. But the attitude displayed was also very violent. No country would do that. Neither Germany would do it, nor Denmark, nor Norway. There would be no shooting or anything. If such a convoy approached Norwegian waters and encountered the Norwegian police, or Norwegian troops, would it be possible for such a thing to happen? At the most there would be a bit of fighting and noise, and some of them would be arrested. That is something encountered. Such a harsh response, such a sharp response, really stunned people. Israel must absolutely apologize.
But it is very easy to resolve these matters right from the start. They can easily be resolved with mutual dialogue. For example, if I am coming to visit one of you as a guest, I will tell you I am coming beforehand and that my intentions are peaceable. Won’t I? I will tell that I’m coming for a good reason. It is very important to provide such details beforehand. There should be exchanges such as “Who will meet us? Where are we to meet, how many kilometers out?” It is wrong to set out without talking beforehand. Down to the finest detail. Turkey has its Foreign Ministry. One can apply to the Foreign Ministry, and they can easily arrange it all. Or one can apply to the Foreign Ministry of another country. One can put in a request saying, “Please arrange our security.” Right? Information has to be given to the government, and one must ask for their help. Then the government will talk to them. They will say, “We have an aid flotilla, we know about it, it is under our guarantee. You can search it if you wish.”
Because as I said earlier, goods enter customs and we conduct searches. There is nothing untoward in that. It can easily be sent in from a point of their choosing.
But this is destiny, and this thing has happened. But let me tell you that despite all the precautions, this kind of things will happen again. Precautions will not change what is destined. It will happen again and again. Until the coming of Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh). Until the coming of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). I said this months ago, that major incidents would take place in the days ahead. Didn’t I? Everyone heard. The tapes are there, and you can see the video footage. I said these things would happen, things of this kind. And now I say that they will happen again. There is no second alternative. These things will not stop until the coming of Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh). They will not stop until the descent of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh), until the appearance of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). Anyone who says he can stop them can have a go, of course. But they will still keep happening.
STEVE GILMOUR: Okay then, Oktar, we will come to the Mahdi in a couple of minutes. Okay?… The IHH who organized this do not have a very good record. In fact in 1997, the Turkish police raided their offices in Istanbul and found guns, bomb making material. So when they organized this flotilla, Mr. Oktar must surely understand why the Israelis would feel this was an act of provocation. Can I ask his comments on that?
ADNAN OKTAR: I have said this many times. It is exceedingly legitimate. If it were in Turkey we would conduct a search for weapons, and there is nothing untoward in that. But the force used [in this case] is not proportionate. It is abnormal. Had the other side used guns as well, then there could have really been little complaint. Had there been an armed clash. But you cannot use guns against people who don’t have them. That is a general law. Guns cannot be used. They have the right to search, and we respect that. I am saying they should conduct a search. It should be done with everyone’s knowledge, and the aid should be taken to the port they wish and handed out together. They should act together at all stages, I say, but there is no excuse for violence. It is obviously something there must be an apology for.
STEVE GILMOUR: Okay, I understand that answer. Last night on my show I had the leader of the opposition in Israel, Tzipi Livni. And she said the best way forward is for international pressure to be put on both Hamas and the Israeli government to sit down and negotiate a way forward. Does Mr. Oktar agree with that?
ADNAN OKTAR: I am always on the side of peace and brotherhood. I am on the side of friendship. I support the resolution of all things by talking and with love. Make that clear and keep it short, we’ll move on like that.
STEVE GILMOUR: Okay, that was a nice, brief answer. Can you ask this then? Turkey’s Prime Minister, Prime Minister Erdogan has today said Israel stands to lose its largest friend in the region. And this is a violent policy, which will not lead to a positive resolution. He has then gone on to accuse Israel of killing children, bombing schools and hospitals. Your own President Abdullah Gul says that Israel is hurting itself and will suffer much more. Now this is a very serious situation between you two countries. Is Mr. Oktar prepared to help in negotiations between Israel and Turkey?
ADNAN OKTAR: I love the Jewish people. I love all devout people. I know they fiercely oppose the use of violence and hate such things. That is because it is a command of the Torah. There is mention of love, affection and compassion in the Torah. It is therefore impossible for devout Jews to approve of such violence. I therefore think that they are also in a difficult position. Once the King Messiah described in the Torah appears, Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) in other words, they will also live in peace and at ease. When the Prophet Jesus (pbuh), the Messiah, returns the whole Christian world will attain peace, brotherhood and love, and Islam will rule the entire world. Our Prophet (saas) said there would be birth pains before this age of happiness. But these things will happen even if precautions are taken against them. The world will enter a Golden Age in a few years’ time, in 10 years’ time. Actually it will begin as of 2012 and grow rapidly. Everyone will see. You see that every word I have said comes true.
STEVE GILMOUR: Now, Mr. Oktar, just in the last couple of days, has said on his television station or certainly on the website that Allah has commanded all Muslims to be united. And as long as the Muslim world fails to abide by this command as revealed in the Qur’an and so long they fail to establish the Turkish Islamic Union, it is this clear that these and similar sufferings will continue. Can you ask Mr. Oktar to tell my listeners more about that statement and more about the Turkish Islamic Union?
ADNAN OKTAR: The dominion of Islam appears quite explicitly in the Qur’an, the Injil and the Torah. There are very clear, explicit references. In the Torah the King Messiah is described in great detail in more than 100 places. There are references to global dominion. Global dominion is also referred to in many verses of the Qur’an. There are also references in the Injil again to global dominion in the end times. Let me read a few passages from the Torah.
For example, look, Ecclesiastes 7:9; “Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools.”In other words, that is the result of anger… I consider my friends and everyone to be free of this, but it clearly shows that anger makes people act out of control. “If a ruler's anger rises against you, do not leave your post;” do not move or resist. “Calmness can lay great errors to rest.” (Ecclesiastes 10:4)
ADNAN OKTAR: I can give examples from the Injil. For instance, 1 Corinthians. 6:2 “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?” It says that saints will ensure justice in the End Times, in the last days of the world. This is a reference in the Injil to Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) and the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). 1 Corinthians, 6:2. “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?”
ADNAN OKTAR: Take Revelation 21:4. “The old order of things has passed away,” it says. In other words, the capitalist order, the fascist and communist order, Darwinist and materialist order will disappear, and Islam will rule instead. “The old order of things has passed away.” (Revelation 21:4)
For example; “until the time comes for God to restore everything,” it says. (Acts 3:21) Everything will be restored. The whole system will change. Peace, justice and brotherhood will again rule the world.
STEVE GILMOUR: My question is, I have spoken to Mr. Oktar before, and he has told me before through yourself that we are in the end times, as he has said again tonight, and this is the time of Hazrat Mahdi. With the problems in the Middle East with Israel and Iran and United States, does he see any potential conflict blowing up with Iran and Israel before we see the Mahdi and before we see the Prophet Jesus?
ADNAN OKTAR: In my view there will be no great war in any form. There is no sign on the hadiths of any such conflict when the system of the Mahdi rules. We are in the time of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh), and in the last years of that time. We are now in the final decade. Any such thing is impossible. But martial language and sounds will be heard. These things appear in the hadiths and the Injil. There will be talk of war, but no war. Reason will prevail. Such thing as war is not possible. That is because there can be no war without Hazrat Khidr’s (pbuh) approval. And he is under Allah’s command.
STEVE GILMOUR: Okay, when will we see the Mahdi? When will Hazrat Mahdi appear to the people?
ADNAN OKTAR: I think he will appear within the next 10 years. For example, I believe in Allah, but I cannot see Him, but I believe in Him. I perceive Allah from His signs, from His proofs. I can also perceive Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) inferentially from the evidence, but there is no need to see him. But I speak as if I had seen him. All the signs have come about. I can hear his footsteps and hear his breathing. Right? I can see everything he is doing and his work. I know that Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) is at work. If I see that the table has been laid and food is on it, then someone must have prepared it. Someone has been instrumental in it. How can I doubt it? I am in no doubt. So I am sure of the existence of Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh). I have never met him face to face, but I am certain. I am also certain of the existence of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). People will see both in the next 10 years.
ADNAN OKTAR: Let me read an extract from the Injil, from Matthew 5:5: “Blessed are the meek,” humble people in other words, “for they will inherit the earth.” They will rule the earth, it says. This is a feature of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh). Both are humble and modest and will inherit the earth. “For they will inherit the earth,” it says in the Injil, in Matthew 5:5.
STEVE GILMOUR: Now can I ask Mr. Oktar, he said earlier that a sign of the end times is that the whole world will unite under Islam? Can he understand why Christians, Jews, other faiths may feel worried and troubled by that statement?
ADNAN OKTAR:That’s correct.
ADNAN OKTAR:Jews will have become real Jews. Many Jews do not live by Judaism. Most of the devout Jews in Israel do not either. I see this in some Jews I speak with. They do not live by the Torah in the true sense. Anyone who genuinely wishes to live by the Torah must be a follower of the Prophet Muhammad (saas) and the Qur’an. Then they will be real Jews. Someone who wishes to be a real Christian must be a follower of the Prophet Muhammad (saas) and abide by the Qur’an. Then he will be a real Christian.
We see that Christians never perform salat [prayer]. But performing salat is in the Injil. And in the Torah. There is prostration, standing and bowing. Allah states it explicitly. But do they do it? They don’t. But when they abide by the Qur’an and become followers of the Prophet Muhammad (saas), then they will perform salat and will have made good all those aspects they lacked. They will not be abandoning the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). They will have loved and understood him more and have followed him more closely. They will be true followers of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). They will be Muslim Christians, in other words. Or Muslim Jews. They will have completely followed the Prophet Moses (pbuh). So there is nothing to feel uneasy over. For example, I am a follower of the Prophet Moses (pbuh), and of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). But I am also a follower of the Prophet Muhammad (saas). Being a follower of the Prophet Muhammad (saas) also means being a follower of the Prophet Moses (pbuh) at the same time. I follow the Prophet Abraham (pbuh) and the Prophet Noah (pbuh). I obey the Prophet Noah (pbuh); I obey all his pronouncements in the Qur’an. So I am also a follower of the Prophet Noah (pbuh). It is impossible to live by the other faiths fully without being a follower of the Prophet Muhammad (saas). It is impossible to live by them properly, in a healthy manner. This is a salvation and goodness for them.
STEVE GILMOUR: Okay now can Mr. Oktar talk about the Mahdi and talk about a united world under Islam? Earlier on I asked him a question which I do not feel he answered properly. Can I ask that question again? After hearing what he said about Jews not practicing their faith, and not praying properly and Christians not praying properly. Then what does he have to say about the IHH charity who in the past have been caught with guns and bomb making equipment? That is not proper Islam, if Islam is such a peaceful religion, why is an organization who claims to be a charity behave in this way?
ADNAN OKTAR:The real problem stems from that. If Muslims truly lived by Islam they would not be divided and fragmented and thus in such difficulties. They would not be so downtrodden. They would not be suffering like this. They are suffering like this because they do not live by the Qur’an and Islam. Not properly. What I am describing is that people will be truly living by the Qur’an in the time of Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) and of the coming of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). People will truly live by Islam. They will truly abide by the Sunnah of our Prophet (saas). And there will be great ease after that. I have set no specific bounds.
ADNAN OKTAR:But people from the IHH do treat people with goodness. They help, and the whole world knows that. Now there could be weapons or other unlawful items in anyone’s home. But that cannot condemn a whole community that behaves so well. All Ireland or America is not to blame when a gun is found in an Irish or American person’s house. The offense lies with the person concerned. There is the principle of individuality of crime. There is no question therefore of it involving all the IHH en masse. I read in the papers and hear from the TV and radio that they send humanitarian aid everywhere. One has to look on the positive side, and see the good aspects.
STEVE GILMOUR: Okay, I am going to have to interrupt here, because I have to now finish. I am running out of time here. Can I say to Mr. Oktar thank you very much for joining me. I still have some questions which I will e-mail over. And maybe you can reply to me by e-mail.
ADNAN OKTAR:Very well. Thank you.
STEVE GILMOUR: Okay, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you, good night and God bless.
ADNAN OKTAR:Good night.
STEVE GILMOUR: Good night, thank you, and goodbye.2010-06-04 19:27:14